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HPA or CO2?


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#1 MadMedicJim

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 08:41 PM

Is HPA better than CO2?

Well there is a multifacited question. OK quick and dirty answer HPA is not better than CO2. Start flaming here. They are both good sources of power. The HPA will run at any temp, has a regulator built onto the tank, stored as a gas, and is more consistant as the day goes on. CO2 will work on most markers, is cheap in fills and initial tank cost, dosen't need to be hydro'd as often, gives you more shots per tank size wise then HPA.

So why do people use HPA? Glad you asked. The better consistancy (which can be gained by putting a in-line regulator on CO2) gives you a more truer velocity per shot. CO2 will change its consistancy based on how hot it is outside. Also the CO2 will have velocity spikes as the internal pressure (and outside world temp) increases. The warmer it gets, the more liquid will change to gas inreasing the internal pressure. CO2 can also spill liquid CO2 into your gun (this is how it is in the tank) wrecking the o-rings. Now of course for this to happen, you would have to turn the gun upside and fire off a dozen shots. With me so far? ;)

So this kind of explains consistancy. You have a reg and you don't have liquid CO2 expanding in your powertube causing your velocity to go up into lethal range. OK just kidding on that one. Now about presure and why you get more shots per tank for CO2. Liquid CO2 will constantly expand out to around 800 psi. Liquid CO2 is what is put into the CO2 tank. That is why it can get cold and freeze up your gun, hey look it's snowing!!!. Since the CO2 will expand out to 800 psi while it goes from liquid to gas, as long as your tank is about 10% full you will maitain the 800 psi needed to operate the marker. Your 4500 psi tank is pressurized gas. So you lose a bit of pressure with every shot. At 10% full you are only at 450 psi. Your gun won't work. You can however get a SCUBA tank setup to fill your tank on the field up to 3000 psi. You need a compressor (a big several thousand $ one) to fill to 4500.

But HPA is a "cleaner gas."  Well yeah, I hate it when I get thoe metal shavings mixed with my paintballs.  I think this is more of a carryover from when it was referred to as Nitrogen tanks.  That had to be medical grade Nitrogen (no not laughing gas, although that would be fun) and thus was fltered.  CO2 is filled as a liquid.  The mere fact that the guns don't have a filter shows that there really isn't much in the way of contaminets.

HPA is cheaper to fill or CO2 is cheaper to fill.  This really depends on where you go and how you fill it.  At my pro shop Hogans Alley in Meriden CT (a gold store per BT) they fill a buck per 1000 psi or 3 bucks per 20 oz tank.  Don't know about the other CO2 sizes.  So a 3000 psi tank is the same but a 4500 will cost more.  OK so you fill a SCUBA tank for 3 bucks and get a dozen fills.  Well fill is relative because as the pressure in the fill tank drops, you can't exceed that pressure in the tank filled.  You can also ust get a 100 lbs CO2 tank and do the same for your 20 oz tank giving you possibly 100+ fills.  So cost is all relative as to which one is better.

Now the cost doesn't factor in Walmart who will exchange your 20 oz tank for a full one for $8.  Kind of a rip off, unless you need to hydro that is.  It is done by Blue Rhino.  The sticker states that the 20 oz is filled with 16 oz liquid CO2.  This is to allow room for the liquid to expand into the gas.
  
Don't let someone tell you that you need HPA to be competitive, the facts don't line up.  So why do people use HPA when the same thing can be accomplished with CO2 and some cash and care????? Easy because we want to.

Jim

#2 The Mad German

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 09:09 PM

Thanks for the post.  I was begining to think I had to switch to HPA eventhough I do just fine with CO2.  For myself and my group is cost and availability.  We have two 100 lb cylinders and two fill stations.  Intitial cost for the tanks was about 250.  Now however we just exchange empties for 25 bucks a tank.  We do charge for CO2 to cover the cost of the tanks (we charge the going rate around here of 25 cents an ounce)  We end up making extra money for the club this way.  There are a couple of dive shops in town that we could probably get HPA from but the fact is they have irregular hours and are hard to get a hold of.  I'm not being biased as I have not used HPA.  Just in terms of ease and convenience I lean towards and use CO2


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#3 BRIK

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 09:11 PM

Nice write up...good job...
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#4 The_Original_Modifier

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 10:09 PM

Great info, pinned!


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#5 hp308_911

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 09:51 AM

Once again, a great write up on that subject MadMedicJim.....

Glad to see it got pinned for others to read.....

It'll help someone out there make a choice on what to use......


#6 Shorty

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 10:52 PM

View Posthp308_911, on Jun 10 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

Once again, a great write up on that subject MadMedicJim.....

Glad to see it got pinned for others to read.....

It'll help someone out there make a choice on what to use......


Meh it just made my decision even harder. I have a 20oz tank and a 9oz Tank. Im getting a BT-4 Assult. And i want HPA tank for consistancy and not so much the range part. Cause ill be medium to close range usually. What would u recommend?

#7 MadMedicJim

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:02 AM

I'll make it a little harder, range dosen't really come into play.  You just need to figure out how much you are looking to spend.  A GREAT inline reg will cost the same as a steely HPA tank.  If you fire a lot of shots rapidly, then HPA is good cause you are not going to be shooting snow with your paintballs.  I would really just look at which refill will be easier and cheaper.  Here is a shot calculator for HPA:

http://www.scubatoys...ntballshots.asp

You should already know how many shots you are getting out of your current setup.  Whats going to be cheaper in the long run?

Jim

#8 Shorty

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 08:27 PM

I don't have my gun yet :P it get shipped to me on like........ the 17th, its a BT-4 assult. I have a 20oz tank. and i plan to get a Java 48/3000 tank. Also i Also am on my belly a lot and Co2 tanks don't like being horizontal, and i dun want liquid in my gun either. And im getting a Remote coil with a side check. A 20oz gets about 1100 rounds. and a 48/3000 gets about 560-590. what would u recommend???

#9 MadMedicJim

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 09:59 PM

Well how many balls do you send downfield in a game.  If you go through a hopper at 200 then 3 pods of 100, your cutting it kinda of close there.  If you play at a field with HPA fills and will not overshoot your tank size, get the HPA as you want to ensure you stay away from the liquid CO2.  If your field is outlaw or charges per fill, then either get a in-line stabilizer that can handle liquid CO2 or invest in a SCUBA fill.  You can also carry your 9 oz with you in addition to the HPA giving you another 500 or so shots.

Also, why so small on the tank?  You can get a steely 70+ cubic inch 3000 psi for below $100.

I recommend that you play a day with your 9 oz.  If you find that you have enough time to go fill it up every game, or you are a one shot one kill kinda player, then the HPA will be the best.  If you are worried about running out of air halfway through the game, get the stabilizer or a bigger HPA tank.  And check with people playing at your field, see what they do.  They are used to dealing with the weather where you live.  Remember, ignore those who are ignorant about how CO2 is just as good as HPA in the right conditions.  i.e. the "You must run HPA as it is better than sex" or whatever.  And if they say that, pity their girlfriends, wives, or stop asking the tweens.

Check out his inline regulator:
http://www.pbreview....ts/reviews/851/

Jim

#10 Shorty

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 11:21 PM

How did u know i have a 9oz? Anyways I don't tend to take a lot of shots. I'm more of a covering fire kind of guy if my team falls back or what not. I ususally don't go through a hopper in 1 game. I have about 25-40 rounds left normally. Like i said im on my belly a lot. I don't do bunker raids very much. I lay back and defend the flag,castles,objective usually. I do worry sometimes about running out of air but also i don't wnat a huge tank either. Also i don't want to refill every game. I was surprised that my 20oz would shoot 1000 rounds. While a 48/3000 would shoot about 580. The HPA tank i was gonna invest in is $79. by java on paintballgear.ca but there is a Pure energy 72/3000 for $100 and also im canadian if u didn't read my mini-profile on the side

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#11 ptverhey

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:42 AM

because a couple posts up (june 10th/08 @ 11:52) you wrote you had a 20oz and a 9oz :P lol
Im a moron

#12 MadMedicJim

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 09:02 AM

View PostShorty, on Jun 12 2008, 12:21 AM, said:

How did u know i have a 9oz?


Well, I am a higher rank so I pulled an inspection of your kit..... :tongue:

If you are not shooting that much then the HPA tank will be fine.  The 72/3000 will get you around 800-850 shots.  Should be plenty for 2 games if you only go through your hopper.  I saw that you where a Canuck (sp?) after I posted my first reply.  You should check with some of our fellow BT members that are in your vicinity to check what they run.  

At this point I would recommend that you get the 72/3000 and carry your co2's filled to the field so you are not constanly running to get a refill.  That will also give you a backup.  The only time you should be careful with the co2 is on warm days where the pressure will increase in the tank.  Since you spend a lot of tme lying down on the job ;) you don't want the liquid getting into the gun.  A stabilizer would help with the co2 but the HPA won't wear and tear a stabilizer that isn't there.

If you find yourself transitioning to a heavy gunner, reconsider the 20 oz co2.  Either that or get a large 4500 psi tank.  Something that will keep up with a higher fire mission.

Jim

#13 Shorty

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:02 PM

I thought switching between Co2 and HPA is bad? and how much are stabilizers usually?

#14 MadMedicJim

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 02:48 PM

I am not aware of any problems switching back and forth.  They are both gases in your gun.  As for a inline regulator aka stabilizer, you can get them from $50 to $100 US.  Of course there are cheaper ones and more expensive ones.  I really do not have much expierence with them as I never really had a need for them.  I have run CO2 and just got  a 71/4500 tank which will last the same as my 20 oz.

Jim

#15 ptverhey

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 03:20 PM

the problem with switching is safety, markers will fire faster (higher fps) on CO2,  your marker should be chrono'd if switched between the gases.
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#16 Shorty

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:10 PM

Well isnt that kinda obvious? taht u would chrono. Well some people don't as far as i know. Well that helps me alot. I can use my 20oz untill my 72/3000 arrives and also im canadian so that $50-100 might be $65-110 in canada or more

#17 Sandman

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:18 PM

Its a great writeup, but I'll still prefer HPA for BTs specifically because of the way the gun is designed...

CO2 can freeze the gun up under high ROF, can crack the powertube, and ultimately isn't as good in that sense.
I like the ability to play in 9 degrees with the same tank I use in 100 degrees.
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#18 Funky Diver

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:29 PM

Without sounding disrespectful... if you have access to Air on tap... then get air.  

You also mention "scuba tanks"... a 12 litre dive tank filled to 3000 psi will give you around 11 litres of useable air by the time you've decanted it.  The law of equalisation applies. So with a 1litre air tank on your' marker.  $3 for 10 decent fills aint that bad is it?

CO2 is outdated, inefficient and damaging to both your marker (frozen O rings) and the environment (the new carbon footprint debate... )
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#19 Black Six

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 08:32 PM

Mmmmm 2300 shots off my 114/4500 CO2 more efficient what?

#20 Flint

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 08:44 PM

View PostFunky Diver, on Jun 12 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

Without sounding disrespectful... if you have access to Air on tap... then get air.  

You also mention "scuba tanks"... a 12 litre dive tank filled to 3000 psi will give you around 11 litres of useable air by the time you've decanted it.  The law of equalisation applies. So with a 1litre air tank on your' marker.  $3 for 10 decent fills aint that bad is it?

CO2 is outdated, inefficient and damaging to both your marker (frozen O rings) and the environment (the new carbon footprint debate... )
X2 'cept the enviroment part  :tongue:

another note, every game i go, sounds like demo disposal site, with the CO2 tanks blowing their orings....
My HPA tank still sports the oring that was on it when i got it two years ago.

and last a stabilizer doesnt help CO2 at all in winter games :cool:
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